Clogher Valley Free Presbyterian Church

Teaching the Scriptures & Preaching the Gospel in a Fallen World

Co Tyrone, Northern Ireland

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THE FOOL

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Rev A P McIntyre

,

The 53rd Psalm is unique, in that it is appears to be an almost verbatim repetition of the 14th Psalm.

The significant difference is best read in the Hebrew where Elohim is employed for God instead of Jehovah. It has been suggested that this is in keeping with the second book of the Psalter where this Psalm is placed, which favours Elohim.

It has also been suggested that the two Psalms have a slightly different emphasis. The 14th appears to be focused on those who are godless within Israel:

There were they in great fear:
for God is in the generation of the righteous.
Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor,
because the LORD is his refuge.

Psalm 14:5-6

The 53rd, on the other hand is concerned with the godless that are outside Israel and who threaten her security:

There were they in great fear, where no fear was:
for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them. Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! When God bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

Psalm 53:5-6

The obvious application is that the godless exist in every society and at times within the Church itself.

The common trait in the two Psalms is the repetition of the moral state of the world. Paul took up this repetition, applying it in his own unique way to the godless state of the Roman world, which is similarly echoed in the western world during this 21st Century.:

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Romans 3:10-12

Where God emphasises the message on more than one occasion, then we need to pay attention. The perilous state of our nation ought to instil fear into all of our hearts in the light of this message and its repetition.

Both the 14th and 53rd Psalms begin with the famous KJV phrase:

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

While this is often applied to atheism, in reality in encompasses all false religion, which denies that the true God as God. Whether the system of belief is secular or religious is of no consequence – fools abound in every camp. Those who deny that Jesus Christ is the only Saviour are fools – regardless of their creed or ethics. This is to deny God’s definition of Himself as the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

A faulty view of God will always lead to a corrupt lifestyle. Therefore having stated who the fool is David highlights the lifestyle:

Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity:
there is none that doeth good.

The reason why our society is so corrupt is because men and women have turned their back upon God. This situation can only be remedied by the Gospel.

Matthew Henry is particularly helpful in this Psalm, using the letter “f” to alliterate 8 headings relating to sin:

The Fact of Sin

God looked down from heaven upon the children of men,
to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy;

“Is that proved? Can the charge be made out? Yes, God is a witness”

Matthew Henry

The Fault of Sin

there is none that doeth good.

“…it is the worst of evils; it is that which makes this world such an evil world as it is.”

Matthew Henry

The Fountain of Sin

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

“Men’s bad practices flow from their bad principles”

Matthew Henry

The Folly of Sin

Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge?

“Atheists whether in opinion or practice, are the greatest fools in the world. Those that do not seek God do not understand; they are like brute-beasts that have no understanding.

Matthew Henry

The Filthiness of Sin

they are altogether become filthy;
there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

“The best things when corrupt become the worst”

Matthew Henry

The Fruit of Sin

who eat up my people as they eat bread:
they have not called upon God.

“See to what a degree of barbarity it brings men at the last”

Matthew Henry

The Fear attending Sin

There were they in great fear, where no fear was:
for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them.

“We need not look upon those enemies with fear, whom God looks upon with contempt”

Matthew Henry

The Faith of the Saints, the cure for sin

Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion!
When God bringeth back the captivity of his people,
Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

“He will save all believers from their own iniquities”

Matthew Henry

19 responses

  1. clubschadenfreude avatar
    clubschadenfreude

    every cult uses the same nonsense as your cult does, the lies about people being fools for not following your cult, etc. Happily, your little sadistic fantasies will never come true.

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    1. Rev A P McIntyre avatar
      Rev A P McIntyre

      The Christian Church is not a cult. A cult is a group which claims that everyone outside of their sect is false. Within the Christian Church there are various denominations which share the same core values and theological fundamentals. We recognise each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. The core fact which binds the Christian community together is that God revealed himself to mankind through the incarnation of His Son; who lived, died and rose again for us. The context is – anyone who refuses to accept the Biblical revelation of God is a fool.

      As for “sadistic fantasies” – this is a message of real hope, of good news of salvation…”Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners”.

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      1. clubschadenfreude avatar
        clubschadenfreude

        So, christianity is indeed a cult since each version claims that everyone outside their sect is false. We have catholics, protestants, evangelicals, anabaptists, mormons, JWs, etc all calling each other wrong.

        You don’t have the same core values since you can’t agree on whatmorals this god wants. And theological fundamentals? Some christians believe in the trinity, some do not. Some believe in free will, some do not. Some believe that grace is the only way to be saved, some do not.

        I know quite a bit about the various forms of Christianity and I know how they differ.

        Christians have murdered each other over their differences, so your claim of a “community” is quite wrong.

        You folks can’t even agree on what this god considers a sin, so why believe you when you claim to have some “cure” for it?

        The concept of hell and your god’s need for eternal torture isn’t a message of hope or love or any of the other false claims christian smake.

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      2. Rev A P McIntyre avatar
        Rev A P McIntyre

        You have a problem though…disprove the resurrection of Christ? That’s your challenge. Read the New Testament and prove that the evidence is flawed?

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      3. clubschadenfreude avatar
        clubschadenfreude

        I’ve read the bible, and surprise, the new testament’s claims are all over the place, showing that there is no reason to think those claims are true.

        You also have the problem that there is no evidence to support those claims at all. Claims cannot be used to support themselves, and the ignorant belief of humans is no evidence that something they believe it, but did not witness is true.

        For example, curious how no one noticed the events around the cruxifiction. No one noticed a certain day with a major earthquake, the sky darkening and dead Jews wandering around Roman-occupied Jersualem on a passover. This is despite the claims in your bible that “many” saw this. You’d think someone might have mentioned this to Pilate or Caiaphas.

        The jewish historian Josephus also missed this. Now, how could that happen?

        Then you hvae the problems in your own bible with the anonymous authors unable to agree what jesus did and when. How many years was jesus’ supposed ministry, Rev? What happened at the tomb? What did the thieves do?

        Why is it that people in jerusalem on any date given by christians for their imaginary events not notice any of the nonsenes suposedly happening, the “triumphal entry”, the dead jews, etc?

        Why did none of the romans note that a guy was being followed by a literal roman legion’s worth of men in roman-occupied Palestine, a noted hotbed of unrest?

        I have evidence of absence and absence of evidence. You have nothing to show any of the christian myths happend nor that your vesion is the only right one. Notably, you can’t do what jesus promises, so it seems that you are a fraud per your own bible.

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      4. Rev A P McIntyre avatar
        Rev A P McIntyre

        Ah – but you are reading the Bible with a closed mind…if historians did that we would believe nothing that is recorded in the past. You need an open mind…here’s example of someone who followed the evidence and he started off thinking like you:

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      5. clubschadenfreude avatar
        clubschadenfreude

        Rev, all christians lie and claim that I’ve not read the bible with a open heart. I have read the bible as a christian and as an atheist. Unsurprisingly, it says the same nonsense.

        Funny how historians dont’ believe your nonsense abouta imaginary man/gods. At best, some think that a delusional jewish man who thought he was the messiah existed and is at the core of the myths.

        Alas, no evidence for your cult’s claims at all.

        and himm, who did move that stone? We have contraditory claims:

        “20 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the tomb. 2 So she ran and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, ‘They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him.’ 3 Then Peter and the other disciple set out and went towards the tomb. 4 The two were running together, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5 He bent down to look in and saw the linen wrappings lying there, but he did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen wrappings lying there, 7 and the cloth that had been on Jesus’ head, not lying with the linen wrappings but rolled up in a place by itself. 8 Then the other disciple, who reached the tomb first, also went in, and he saw and believed; 9 for as yet they did not understand the scripture, that he must rise from the dead. 10 Then the disciples returned to their homes.” gospel of john

        So here we have mary alone at the tomb, and the stone already moved, no one at the tomb to greet her. Two apostles looked in, one goes in. They wander off. Mary looks in again, and sees two angels in the tomb. Then mary sees someone she doesn’t know. Jesus reveals it is him, and forbids mary from touching him. The apostles are hidign in fear for their lives and jesus magically appears among them. Thomas asks for evidence and gets it.

        Then we have

        “4 But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb, taking the spices that they had prepared. 2 They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, 3 but when they went in, they did not find the body.[a] 4 While they were perplexed about this, suddenly two men in dazzling clothes stood beside them. 5 The women[b] were terrified and bowed their faces to the ground, but the men[c] said to them, ‘Why do you look for the living among the dead? He is not here, but has risen.[d] 6 Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee, 7 that the Son of Man must be handed over to sinners, and be crucified, and on the third day rise again.’ 8 Then they remembered his words, 9 and returning from the tomb, they told all this to the eleven and to all the rest. 10 Now it was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the other women with them who told this to the apostles. 11 But these words seemed to them an idle tale, and they did not believe them. 12 But Peter got up and ran to the tomb; stooping and looking in, he saw the linen cloths by themselves; then he went home, amazed at what had happened” gospel of luke

        So we have more than mary going to the tomb, there are two men appearing tomb after they go in, not two angels inside already, and peter went to the tomb by himself.

        Then we have

        “6 When the sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him. 2 And very early on the first day of the week, when the sun had risen, they went to the tomb. 3 They had been saying to one another, ‘Who will roll away the stone for us from the entrance to the tomb?’ 4 When they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had already been rolled back. 5 As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man, dressed in a white robe, sitting on the right side; and they were alarmed. 6 But he said to them, ‘Do not be alarmed; you are looking for Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has been raised; he is not here. Look, there is the place they laid him. 7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going ahead of you to Galilee; there you will see him, just as he told you.’ 8 So they went out and fled from the tomb, for terror and amazement had seized them; and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid. “ Gospel of Mark

        where a group goes, the rock is rolled back. They find a man alone in the tomb, not two angels, not men appearing in the tomb after they go in. No one else goes to the tomb.

        And then we have: “28 After the sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. 2 And suddenly there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord, descending from heaven, came and rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothing white as snow. 4 For fear of him the guards shook and became like dead men. 5 But the angel said to the women, ‘Do not be afraid; I know that you are looking for Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here; for he has been raised, as he said. Come, see the place where he[a] lay. 7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples, “He has been raised from the dead,[b] and indeed he is going ahead of you to Galilee; there you will see him.” This is my message for you.’ 8 So they left the tomb quickly with fear and great joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9 Suddenly Jesus met them and said, ‘Greetings!’ And they came to him, took hold of his feet, and worshipped him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, ‘Do not be afraid; go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.’” Gospel of Matthew

        Only two go to the tomb. The rock was in place. There was an earthquake and an angel who rolled back the rock and had a seat, and who freaked out the guards, which are no where to be found in the other gospels. The two women looked in the tomb. No peter to be found. Jesus suddenly appears to them, they recognize him and he allows them to touch him.

        Morison is hilariously incompetent, ignoring all of this in his desperate need to believe in his cult. He claims this “In Matthew, which is of course by far the earliest and generally the most trustworthy document, the guards tell their story to the priests and are paid by them to circulate a false statement. In Peter the guards report directly to Pilate and are told by him to keep silence. In Nicodemus they follow the course described by Matthew.” Which we know is false. He repeatedly makes claism that have no evidence to support them in his inventions to try to make this nonsense make sense.

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      6. Rev A P McIntyre avatar
        Rev A P McIntyre

        Is Josh McDowell also “ hilariously incompetent”. Why do former atheists become followers of Christ? If anything – both McDowell & Morrison and others had minds which were inclined away from religion…yet they changed? Why? Was the evidence rubbish? – BUT was there a deeper power at work also? – The Spirit of God! You accuse Christianity of having a terrible record when it comes to violence and oppression. Atheism hasn’t such a good record either Stalin, Pot, Hitler, Mao! Does that mean their Atheism makes all atheists tyrants! Obviously not. Sadly some used Christianity for power and control but that was a perversion of Christianity. The Gospel in its purest sense transformed the world for good… it is the mother of freedom. The fact of Christ is embedded into our calendar. To avoid Him is to avoid the inescapable…the Bible may be correct (I believe certainly it is) But you cannot deny in your own reasoning that it might just be right – then what will you do. Keep searching my friend.

        https://amzn.eu/d/cv734Kc

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      7. clubschadenfreude avatar
        clubschadenfreude

        Yep, McDowell, and his son Sean, are both also hilarious incompetent. They make the same apologetic nonsesen that others do. They try to claim that reports of what thseists believe is evidence the gods they believe in are real. Well, they claim that about their god and try to pretend it wouldn’t apply to every other god.

        Atheists can be stupid too and join cults. That doesn’t make the cult true.

        They have no evidence so, what they claim *is* rubbish. No evidence of a deeper power, but nice try to make claims with again, no evidence at all.

        Atheism is a conclusion that a particular god or gods don’t exist. You are an atheist too. Chrsitians love to try toclaim that atheism was somehow responsible for the genocides from Stalin, etc, and funny how in all of htose cases, it was megalomania, not atheism. Unless you want to claim that your atheism regarding other gods than your own makes you a genocidal lunatic? Do you? Oh and hitler was a Catholic. He strayed from that during his later years with Himmler’s infurance but if you read Mein Kampf, he attributes his hatred of the jews to Christianity. Your typical ignorance is nothing new.

        You then try to blame christains for perverting chrsitainity, which shows your god to be impotent at best and imaginary at worst. IT’s amazing how this god “once upon a time” had no problem with killing anyone who upset it, but now can’t do a thing.

        Alas, your imaginary friend is entirely escapable, and it does nothing at all. Your sadistic little fantasies, again, will never come true. I don’t need you or your imaginary genocidal lunatic friend. Nothing shows “it just might be right” at all.

        But nice appeal to pascal’s wager which requires: the ignorance that one doesn’t lose resources if one worships the wrong god, a god that is stupid enough to accept people who believe “just in case” and the belief you have the right god.

        The Case for Christ fails hilariously. There is no evidence for “eyewitnesses”. The gospels make ridiculous contradictions. Jesus fails to fulfill jewish messiah prophecies. No evidence of jesus so no evidence of any crusifiction or resurrection.

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      8. Rev A P McIntyre avatar
        Rev A P McIntyre

        I find your intolerance, your general lack of understanding or grace to be most disturbing.

        God is not an imaginary genocidal friend as you crudely express it. He is a person with whom I have a personal relationship, who gives me peace in my travel through this life.

        He is a just God, as every lawmaker is just.

        But He is also kind and gracious, responsive to repentance. He is more tolerant of atheists than atheists of your ilk are towards Christians.

        It’s interesting – atheists are a minority of the world’s population. Billions have an awareness of a higher power. What makes you think that you have a right to claim that atheists are actually more rationale, more thoughtful than the bulk of humanity – do you really think you are only people not deceived! It’s an astonishing display of arrogance.

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      9. clubschadenfreude avatar
        clubschadenfreude

        AKA you are upset that I dare question your claims and you are upset that I don’t accept your excuses to be “disturbing”.

        Unfortuantely, you have yet to show your version of the chritsian god merely exists, much less that it does anything at all. You have also been unable to show that this god, described in your bible as a committer and commander of genocide, is inaccurately described by me.

        You cannot show that this fictional character is a real person at all, nor that you have any kind of relationship with it. Unsurprisingly, you, like all self-professed Christians, cannot do what your bible promises to all true believers. Even your bible indicates you are a fraud.

        You claim that this god is “just”. Now, do tell how it is just to kill someone for the actions of someone else. Would you find it “just” if you were killed for something I did? If you would not, then explain how it is okay, in your bible, when your god does exactly that with David’s son, the children in Egypt, etc?

        Since Christians cannot agree on what one needs to even repent *for* it appears you are all simply making this nonsense up. And hmm, your god tolerant? Funny how we can see the exact opposite in your rather silly bible. We have this god killing entire families for the actions of one member. Unsurprisngly, this god is imaginary and thus can’t do anything to atheists at all. That’s your supposed “tolerance”: simple impotence.

        Yep, atheists are indeed a minority of the world’s population *so far*, and we are becoming more and more numerous every single day. Your appeal to popularity logical fallacy is hilarious since all of the billions of theists claim each other are going to hell, are wrong, are heretics, are deceived, etc, and don’t believe in the same imaginary nonsense. This complete contradictory nonsense, even amongst Christians, shows that atheists like me are quite a bit more rational. It’s hilarious that you think that only your version is right, but then try to give this excuse for why I should believe you. So much for your accusations of “arrogance”.

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      10. Rev A P McIntyre avatar
        Rev A P McIntyre

        Ok: we need to think clearly snd consider 4 very basic facts –

        1: The credibility of the Bible. Can you or anyone disprove the factual narratives in Scripture? Archeology has confirmed numerous people, places, events – has anything been disproved? Take a wander through the British Museum and you will discover evidence of the Ur of the Chaldees, Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, Assyria, Nineveh, Ahab and others. You dismiss the Bible too lightly in your quest to deny there is a God.

        2: Looking at the Bible as a whole the central theme which unites the book argues for its veracity. God spoke of a Redeemer in Eden, the family out of which He would be born was identified through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah & David. At the heart of the Redeemer’s work was death by sacrifice. This theme runs from the death of the first animal sacrifices in Eden, to the Leviticus code, the Passover, the Day of Atonement and it climaxed on the cross. One dying for another may seem difficult for you I admit But Jesus Christ was the willing substitute for us. He was not forced. He did it out of pure love. The cross was the greatest demonstration of both justice and mercy in the history of the world. This theme is woven into the fabric of the Bible by numerous authors over a 1500 year time frame. There is a miraculous consistency throughout.

        3: The Jewish people are a fact. A colleague of mine was an atheist who thought as you do. He was convinced of the truth of Christianity by the presence of the Jews. No people have experienced the hatred, persecution and genocide like the Jews. They are the most ancient people in the world; they have lost their nationhood on more than one occasion only to have it recovered. They received a particular blessing through Abraham their Father which argues for their preservation.

        4: Ultimately, all I can show you is the evidence, which points to the existence of God, but I cannot scientifically prove there is a God anymore than you can scientifically prove there is not a God. I suppose that creates a stalemate except for this one fact…we both have faith…Mine rests in a God who gives me peace and happiness and hope…your faith in your atheistic secularism. In both cases we have made what we consider rationale choices but yet they both rest on faith. My choice rests in a Saviour who died and rose again for me. That in itself sets Christianity apart – resurrection gives hope in a world of death. What does your faith do for you, what hope does it provide you with?

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      11. clubschadenfreude avatar
        clubschadenfreude

        So much for claims of “facts”.

        1. The bible is not credible in any way. There are many bible scholars and myself who can show that your myths are false. Archaeology has not supported the essential claims of the bible at all. There is no evidence for any of the supposed god caused events, including the world-wide 28,000+ foot deep flood, babel, the exodus, the battles of hundreds of thousands of combattants, any of the events in the gospels, or any of paul’s claims like him going to rome.

        Archaeology has supported that jews used ritual baths, that some of the people mentioned in the bible existed and that some of the places existed. If this is “evidence” for your god, then we have evidence that Athena and Poseidon are real, that the Egyptian gods are real, etc since those myths also mention real places and people. It also is “evidence” that Spider-man is real and the Avengers are real since both comic books and movies mention real places and people.

        2. Nope, the bible isn’t a whole, and has no “central theme”, so your claims of these thing that don’t exist as evidence for its veracity fails. God did not speak of jesus in eden, there is no evidence for that at all. What we have in eden is an amazingly ignorant god, who made amoral humans, then threw a tantrum when those humans were amoral and listened to snake/satan who this god either allowed into the garden or couldn’t keep it out. I think it’s hilarious when Christians try to claim that jesus was part of the “us” in genesis with no evidence at all. The baseless claim in John also fails since there is no evidence from the Jews themselves that they ever thought this was true.

        Unfortunately, for chrsitians, what they lie and claim as prophecy for their jesus was for the jewish messiah, a position that jesus fails rather pitifully. Happily, I don’t need a scapegoat to be tortured to death for my actions. I’m responsible for them, no one else. I find it disgusting that Christians are so selfish and greedy.

        Nope, no love, just a rather peculiar god hat demands blood and pain to make itself happy. No one but this god wanted this disgusting nonsense.

        Unsurprisingly, there is no “miraculous consistency” in your bible with Christians unable to agree on how one is saved, what this god wants for morals, what heaven and hell are, how to interpret the bible, etc. Then we have Paul contradicting jesus repeatedly, so I’m not impressed. I suggest googling “Paul contradicts Jesus voiceofjesus” to see a very nice list of the contradictions shown by one of your fellow Christians.

        3. Yep, the jewish people are a fact. So are believers in Allah, believers in Wakan Tanka, believers in the various Hindu gods, etc. That is not evidence that those gods are real.

        Your friend was an idiot if he was so ignorant to think that since the jews exist, some god must exist. Yep, plenty of cults are abused, and funny how Christians are one of the worst anti-semitic movements ever, with your need for all jews to be converted or dead for your end times fantasies. Jews aren’t even remotely the most ancient people in the world. Your ignorance is sadly typical of a christain who must lie to support his cult.

        No god preserved the jews, they did it themselves. If their god supposedly is “preserving” them, then it is a complete incompetent moron when it came to the Holocaust/Shoah.

        Ultimately, you can’t show me any evidence and all of your claims are baseless as I have demonstrated above. You can’t show your god exists scientifically when you should be able to. There should be plenty of evidence. Every single self-proclaimed christain should be able to do what the bible has your jesus promising to them. Funny how not one of you can. What’s wrong? The bible lies? You lie?

        Alas, imaginary nonsense can never be shown to exist. This god “once upon a time’ had no problem at all giving evidence. Curious how it can’t anymore.

        Happily, I do not have faith, I have trust in observed facts. That is not the same as playing pretend that some imaginary powerful being agrees with me, but strangely does nothing at all.

        Your cult rests on a need to pretend that anyone who dares not agree with you deserves death and worse. It gives hope that your sadistic fantasies will come true.

        Sine I have no faith, your question is simply a lie, an attempt to force me to agree with your lie. Oh tsk, you fail. My worldview, mostly epicureanism, give me hope since people are basically good, and that if we worth together, enjoy life, etc, we can achieve great things. This isn’t a “world of death’. You just have a death cult, desperately wishing for death so you can get your magical prezzies, wishing for the death of others so you get your revenge on them for them not giving you the external validation you crave.

        I’m very happy not to be part of such nonsense anymore.

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      12. Rev A P McIntyre avatar
        Rev A P McIntyre

        As I said – you have made your choice, you have answered none of my arguments. If you were indeed as proud of your beliefs as you pretend it would be good if you could unmask yourself rather than hide behind a veil of anonymity which allows you to pour out your venom:

        I conclude this exchange with Scripture from the One we will stand before one day:

        “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
        He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”

        John 3

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      13. clubschadenfreude avatar
        clubschadenfreude

        False, AP. It’s a shame that you have chosen to lie. Considering how Christians try to harm non-christians, I am perfectly justified in my caution. You may know that I am a former Presbyterian Christian who lives in central Pennsylvania, USA. You can see more about me on my blog.
        It’s unsurprising that you cannot show any of my answers to your claims to be in error. If they are, then show it. Show that we should accept your nonsense when we don’t accept the nonsense for other religions and gods.

        And unsurprisingly, all you have are impotent threats from your bible. I’m not impressed. Your sadistic fantasies will never come true.

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      14. Rev A P McIntyre avatar
        Rev A P McIntyre

        An interesting and rather dubious tactic, you accuse the Christian of lying when you yourself are the one refusing to face the facts.

        In this thread, which is really a conversation rather than an intense philosophical dialogue I have mentioned several facts which you deliberately ignore.

        Let’s have a couple of samples.

        The British Museum abounds in discoveries which validate the Bible. I know about this because I have done the tour. Some of these discoveries actually debunked previous myths; for example at one time it was believed that people could not write in the days of Moses therefore Moses did not write the Pentateuch. But archeology discovered that people were writing much earlier than what was supposed. The sceptics were wrong! You had better start learning about Biblical archeology, rather than going off on your own little tangents.

        You suggest that because you said that God cannot be discovered scientifically that was an admission of failure. Of course I can turn that around because your failure to disprove God scientifically is also a failure.

        But let’s remain with your hypothesis that unless we discover God scientifically then He isn’t real, an imaginary figure according to your reasoning. You base your theory upon the idea that everything must have a scientific basis to be real? Really – have you never loved? Where is love? What is love? Can the surgeon find love? No of course he doesn’t? People will die for love – now that’s not really in keeping with evolutionary theory is it, not very scientific? Yet love is an undeniable aspect of human nature. We observe love, we feel love, at times it’s not rational but it’s real. In like manner I know God is real and millions feel the same. We feel His presence, we know His love, we observe Him at work. Ultimately we experience Him by faith. And He is definitely worth living for and dying for! That may not be scientific but I tell you – it’s real.

        You see – there is a profound difference between you and me. I love your soul, I want to win you for Christ…You talk as if you hate Christians; there is an anger in your tone that reveals the basest of humanity.

        But there is hope and deliverance through faith in Christ alone.

        Away with this sadistic nonsense…Christianity is a religion of peace and love not war and bloodshed. Your mind is jaundiced.

        Why?

        Why did you turn from Christianity?

        What’s your first name so I can address you more politely.

        Your praying friend

        Peter

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      15. clubschadenfreude avatar
        clubschadenfreude

        Unsurprisingly, Peter, you have yet to present any facts. As I pointed out, in my response to you, what you claimed as facts are not, and explained why in detail. That’s why you are called out as a liar when you falsely claimed that I answered none of your arguments. Now you must contradict your claim about that, since you now admit that I have indeed answered you.

        it’s also hilarious that you are now trying the nonsense of whining about a conversation rather than an “intense philosophical dialogue”, which you cannot support in your claims. This is a typical Christian tactic, the attempt of a Christian to appeal to “sophisticated theology”, when their nonsense fails.
        The British Museum abounds in artifacts supporting real places and people. Not one supports the essential claims of the bible, regarding its god, its magic, etc. There is no evidence Moses existed, the exodus happened or that Moses wrote anything at all. Your appeal to evidence showing that people could write before some made up date for Moses’ existence fails as evidence for your cult’s nonsense.

        As I pointed out earlier, that the bible mentions real places and people is known. This fact does not support the claims that some god exists. If this were the case, then Athena, Poseidon, etc would all also exist per your argument. It is up to you to explain why this would not be the case. Are these gods as supposed real as you claim yours is?

        Your god should be able to be discovered by the scientific method. Surprise, it can’t be and not one of the events it supposedly caused can be shown to have happened. As I stated, no evidence for the noah flood, the exodus, babel, any event in the gospels, and pauls nonsense about going to rome, etc. Your god can be disproved by the scientific method since that method depends on observation and experimentation and evidence. We have absence of evidence for your god and the supposed events it caused since there is no archaeology, contemporary writings, noting these supposed events. We also have evidence of absence since at any time invented by Christians for these events, humans were doing regular human things, not bothered by imaginary floods, etc.

        ROFL. Oh dear, so, Peter, since, by your claims, things can be found without the scientific method, fairies are real as your god, as are any other gods humans have worshipped. You can’t prove they don’t’ exist, can you?

        Unfortunately for you, Peter, your typical ignorance in appealing to feelings like love fail since we know what love is and where it comes from, the human brain. A surgeon can’t find love but an EEG can. Yep, people will die for love since, yep it’s real. The feeling that some god exists is real too, but no evidence that the god involved is real. So people die for feelings. That’s all you’ve established. No brain, no feelings. Injured brain, injured ability to have feelings.
        Love, the concern for others’ well being and happiness, is easily supported by evolutionary theory. Evolutionary theory is about continuing the species. Love helps with that by engendering the desire to protect others so it is selected for. Happily, in humans, the feeling isn’t just limited to genetic relatives but to communities.

        Every cultist claims that they “feel” their god, and not one can show this feeling to be anything but a feeling, something the brain produces. I can’t feel someone’s love, they have to demonstrate it since I don’t share their brain. Your god unsurprisingly demonstrates nothing at all, despite the desperate claims of Christians. You claim you believe by nothing more than “faith”, aka hope that it is true with no evidence to indicate that. Do show your feelings any different from any other cultist’s, Peter. Surely you can, right? Every cultists claims what you do: “And He is definitely worth living for and dying for! That may not be scientific but I tell you – it’s real.” You are no different than any Muslim who flies into a building.
        Nope, Peter, you don’t love me or my imaginary “soul”. You need my validation, and you are upset that you don’t get it by just demanding it. I hate the harm that the lies that Christians tell do, and yep, I can hate Christians for their actions. Your cult is based on the hope that anyone but you is harmed for daring not to obey you.

        Funny how there is no hope or deliverance through your imaginary god. I can see that just by looking around and seeing the faithful having the same problems that any human has. Your god does nothing at all.

        I am quite amused by your attempts to lie about Christianity as supposedly being a religion of “peace”. Funny how jesus isn’t about that at all. How about we look at your bible, Peter?

        “34 ‘Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
        35 For I have come to set a man against his father,
        and a daughter against her mother,
        and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
        36 and one’s foes will be members of one’s own household.
        37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it.” Matthew 10

        “15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule[i] them with a rod of iron; he will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name inscribed, ‘King of kings and Lord of lords’.
        The Beast and Its Armies Defeated
        17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly in mid-heaven, ‘Come, gather for the great supper of God, 18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of the mighty, the flesh of horses and their riders—flesh of all, both free and slave, both small and great.’ 19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against the rider on the horse and against his army. 20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed in its presence the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshipped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulphur. 21 And the rest were killed by the sword of the rider on the horse, the sword that came from his mouth; and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.” Revelation 19

        “25 Now large crowds were travelling with him; and he turned and said to them, 26 ‘Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple.” Luke 14

        “26 “I tell you, to all those who have, more will be given; but from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But as for these enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and slaughter them in my presence.”’” Luke 19
        “They are fully aware of God’s death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.” Romans 1

        And of course the OT is full of how violent this god/jesus is:

        “Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel” Deut 17

        “They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. “ 2 Chronicles 15

        So much for “peace and love”. Peter, do you think I haven’t read the bible and know exactly what it says?

        I was a Christian, curiously enough a Presbyterian, and then ended up toward a more free will version. I read the bible, realized it was rather violent and ignorant. I prayed to this god for help not losing my faith, figuring that it could explain. Unsurprisingly,prayers aren’t answered, and sinen there is no evidence for your version of christanity or any version, or any other religion, I have concluded that there are no gods.

        You can call me Vel. And I see you seem to be praying for me to agree with you. I’ve had dozens of Christians doing that for me for the past 30+ years and they all fail. This is despite the many claims int eh bible that any true believer will get *any* prayer answered(John 14), without exceptions or excuses(Matthew 7) and answered quickly(matthew 7). Why would this be the case, Peter? Is it because this god loves me as I am? That this god doesn’t consider any of you true believers? Or that this god doesn’t exist?

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      16. Rev A P McIntyre avatar
        Rev A P McIntyre

        Ok Vel

        Let’s stay with your line of reasoning.

        You say – Nowhere does the archeology contained in the British Museum substantiate the claims of the Bible? You will discover the mighty Assyrian empire including the Nineveh library, bricks from Babylon containing Nebuchadnezzar’s name, an obelisk with Ahab’s name and messages sent from Achish to Jerusalem when Babylon attacked.

        I know you restrict your claims to the revelation of a God. But you can’t have your cake and eat it. When the veracity of biblical facts are authenticated that in itself points to the purity of the spring. You have to admit that the Bible contains verifiable facts?

        In an earlier piece you rubbished my insistence that the Bible had a central theme. I wondered at you taking time to state this. I figure you understand that if separate authors from the Jewish and Gentile word produced a volume containing one theme, over a 1500 year period, that demonstrates like nothing else the divine origin. The theme of redemption exists; from Eden, the Passover, the prophecies of David and Isaiah climaxing in the Gospels. The Bibles fits together like a jig saw. It is a delicately woven garment.

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      17. clubschadenfreude avatar
        clubschadenfreude

        Yep, my reasonsing is good, so let’s indeed stay with it. Your attempt to misrepresent it fails.

        “You say – Nowhere does the archeology contained in the British Museum substantiate the claims of the Bible? You will discover the mighty Assyrian empire including the Nineveh library, bricks from Babylon containing Nebuchadnezzar’s name, an obelisk with Ahab’s name and messages sent from Achish to Jerusalem when Babylon attacked.”

        Again, Peter, you confuse mentions of real places and people in your bible stories as evidence that the stories are true. By your reasoning, and I use that term loosely, you are claiming that every myth that mentions real place and people means that the myth is true. So, you are saying Athena and Poseidon are as real as your god. Are you good with that?

        I am not trying to have my cake and eat it too. Unless you are good with Athena and Poseidon being considered as real as your god, you are simply lying, Peter. The fact that the bible mentions real place and people doesn’t mean that this god exists or that this magical nonsense happened. That one thing in the bible is true doesn’t mean that all of it is true. That is just hilarious to see someone so ignorant, or desperate, to claim that.

        For example, the qu’ran mentions Mecca. Mecca is a very real city. Does this mean that the religion is true? Yes or no? The qu’ran mentions figs, which are a very real fruit, does this mean that the religion is true?

        Yep, I showed that your claims are rubbish, Peter. The bible doesn’t have a central theme. It has contradictory nonsense repeatedly. So, your claims that 1500 years of a central theme is evidence of your god fail since there is no such thing. There are various claims of redemption and gee, the OT says to follow the laws, and the new says believe in some resurrected guy. Quite different things.

        Again, your jesus fails the prophecies, Peter. That’s why there are still jews. Christians have desperately gone through the bible inventing prophecies and ignoring where the jewish ones don’t’ support their false claims. The bible is a patchwork of rags that fails to cover the fact that its god doesn’t exist.

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